you don't really think that turkey would shoot down a russian plane without asking the pentagon for permission first, do you?

i know it's hard to get your head around what just happened here.

but, you have to understand that the russians were bombing american assets. the border likely had almost nothing to do with this.

we're going to get a nice theatrical presentation, here. everybody will blame the other. we're terrorists. they're nazis. it's all really just absurd rhetoric.

the facts on the ground are that the russians are propping up a state that nato is trying to tear down. they're trying to control the border between syria and turkey because that's how everything gets into the country. in the process, they're bombing people and supply routes and other things that nato is spending a lot of money on and has a lot invested into. the russians could not have been so naive as to think that the border of a failed state was going to immunize them from retaliation.

we've been told the cold war is over and we're in an era of globalized capital and blah blah blah. the reality is that syria is now a classic cold war proxy conflict, and has been for...since the start. but, the other dynamics have largely faded.

i don't know how the russians will react. i've seen some suggestions about cutting off natural gas to turkey, which would probably hurt russia more than turkey. i think that's probably at the extreme end of the spectrum.

the russians are playing with fire. they got burned. they had to expect it.

in the long run, either the russians drive the americans out or the americans drive the russians out. or, if sanity prevails after the next election, some kind of deal is worked out. that's the truth in syria.

this will happen again. it may even become normal.

www.cbc.ca/news/world/turkey-military-plane-1.3332171

Justin Different
How can Russians on his site support Putin when he is sending Russians to die in a foreign land? You will see him soon on a tank bare chested with crossed arms.

jessica murray
i do not advise trying to get your head into the russian public opinion.

but, he's doing ok in the polls.

(deleted post)

jessica murray
well, that's what the aim of the sanctions was, but it doesn't seem to be working very well.

russians are an intensely nationalistic people. when you do things like place economic sanctions on them that threaten to harm them, they don't react by attacking their government. rather, they double down and rally around each other.

americans can't understand this concept of *solidarity* because we're raised to think it's evil. but, it's the culture in russia.

he'll say some contrived things about being strong, and they'll eat it up. if it hurts, they'll make sacrifices for the common good. if the war gets too close, they'll form militias and volunteer to fight.

as trump might say, that's what it's like to "have a country".

you also have to keep in mind that the sanctions are not global. russia is maintaining healthy bilateral trade with china and india and europe is being dragged along unwillingly - that can't last forever. there's certain sectors it's hurting, and it may eat into russia's rather large currency reserves, but the potential to cripple the country simply isn't there.

Sal_The_Instigator
a very interesting perspective! I think Turkey had enough and Russia thought that Turks have the same attitude as Ukraine or us of talking and waiting for Putin to behave while Russians forgot that Turkey actually is a remnant of one of the old Empire in Europe and has to take matters in its hand from time to time. It was a miscalculation from Putin and he simply paid for it. If anything History will tell you that it's better to have Turkey as an alley than not!

jessica murray
so, i'm just curious.

how long would you expect nato to allow russia to bomb their assets for, before retaliating?

it's already been a few months.

until they manage to secure the border?

Seer
many think the Athman empire is only evident Turks; there are other Turkic peoples you have missed identifying.

jessica murray
the ottoman empire never saw itself as a pan-turkic confederation. there have been such broad tribal alliances throughout history, but they existed during the period where turks were nomadic steppe peoples. they played important roles in the byzantine-persian wars, and were often useful tools for imperial "barbarian management". but, this doesn't translate into anything at all in the modern era.

rather, the ottoman empire saw itself mostly as the lineal descendant of the arabic caliphate and sometimes as the successor state to the eastern roman empire.

some kind of concept of turkish leadership across the steppes and into central asia may be useful propaganda. and, i won't be surprised if the pentagon tries it. but, there's literally zero historical basis for it.

turkey, as we know it, is a syncretic society that speaks turkish, follows a jewish-arab religion in theory (but is mostly secular in practice) and has mostly greek/byzantine ethnic ancestry and day-to-day customs. it's connection to central asia is entirely lost to history. archaeologists can't even establish an agreed upon migration path or even settle on the dates well.

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ulkas
Why is Turkey even a member of NATO. No one likes them. No one is going to fight for them if they get attacked. Turkey supports terrorism. They buy ISIS oil and yet where are all the Turkish planes bombing ISIS. They are disgusting hypocrites in every account. The claim that the Su-24 invaded Turkish airspace is flimsy atat best. Russia is the good guy in all of this. The only one seeking to destroy ISIS and bring stability to Syria.

jessica murray
british control over the dardanelles was a very important strategic objective in the era of naval warfare. the russians have had designs on turkey since the day that constantinople fell to the turks. they consider themselves the rightful heirs of the byzantine empire. as such, turkey felt the need to put itself in an alliance against the soviets.

there's huge amounts of history, there. but the most immediate issue at the time was russian involvement in greece. the battle between the soviets and the british over the straits in the late 40s is as close as we've ever come to a direct war against russia.

there's difficulties here. but the truth is that turkey is a more reliable nato ally than most other countries in the alliance, including france.

the alliance has held for very good reasons. if there's been any concern recently, it's been in turkey feeling economically excluded and looking east for trade.

the turks did not shoot this plane down without consultation, and in fact probably direction, from the pentagon.