i'm not exactly upset about hurting the oil industry. let the western bastards starve on welfare.

but, you have to put in place real alternatives before it's meaningful. what are we accomplishing by shutting down exports, if we're still reliant on imports? not much, besides falling on our own swords.

it might be a good idea in a few years, once we've largely eliminated our need for imports and it's a purely export industry. but, it shouldn't be the short term focus, if we're actually really serious about reducing emissions. we need to transition, first.

www.cbc.ca/news/business/ecofiscal-commission-carbon-tax-report-1.3322817

(deleted response)

we export most of our oil from the united states, and the balance from the middle east and the north sea. eastern canada uses almost no oil from western canada, because you refuse to sell it to us at a reasonable price.

Mad Robert
You insist on it being trucked. You ban the use of oil tankers, and object to pipelines, and then you complain about it not getting there?

jessica murray
that's nonsense. we set up a national energy program decades ago to address this, and you had a hissy fit about selling it to us at a reasonable price.

Had 'nuff yet?
Letting the western bastards starve on welfare will result in a lot of eastern bastards starving on welfare.

jessica murray
that's also nonsense. the reality is that the cost of living in the prairies is absurdly inflated, and the equalization formula gets screwed up as a result of it. if you take the oil out, we'll be sending you subsidies again - as we did in the past.

Had 'nuff yet?
The NEP also tanked the economy with 20% interest rates.

jessica murray
nope. it was meant to *react* to 20% interest rates, which were set to combat stagflation that set in as a consequence of the opec embargo. and, it would have worked, if you weren't such whiners.

Eagle73
You think hurting western Canada will not affect the rest of Canada? You're naive and foolish.

jessica murray
if the cost of living were to come down, it would actually help most albertans.

Eagle73
Re-read your first 2 sentences from your first comment.

jessica murray
i don't see your implication. welfare is set by the provinces, from revenue generated by the provinces.

Had 'nuff yet?
Are you actually old enough to remember the NEP?

jessica murray
i'm not old enough to remember the nep, but i've read up on it and don't think citing my age is a valid argument.

the purpose of the nep was energy security. the oil embargo had a hugely negative effect on the economy (it's not exactly true to say it drove up interest rates; interest rates are set by people that make decisions, and are never a consequence of economic factors. it's more accurate to say that we made the choice to increase interest rates to combat stagflation, which was caused by the embargo). yet, canada was producing oil. the government realized that this was irrational and set up a system to provide western oil to eastern canada at a discounted price, to reverse the effects of stagflation and reduce reliance on imported oil.

western oil producers had a hissy fit at the idea, told us to freeze in the dark and yelled and screamed and stomped their feet until it got reversed. the result was that eastern canada again became reliant on foreign oil, while western oil producers continued to reap ridiculous profits on exports.

Andrew Niall Gordanier
I hope you freeze in the cold for what you said about westerners. I don't think you want to go into the science behind the matter you speak of. Clearly you have no frame of reference.

jessica murray
you're supposed to tell me to freeze in the dark, actually.

been-there-done-that
Population isn't everything.

Your successive Liberal Governments, and let's not forget Bob Rae's NDP, have destroyed Ontario's manufacturing sector.

Your current high energy rates are about to go even higher. So that should finish off what's left.

Ontario has been on the receiving end of transfer payments in recent years,and the primary source for them has been the oil producing Provinces.

So if anyone should be concerned about the effects of oil industry killing carbon taxes, it is you.

jessica murray
i suppose you think that nafta and automation had nothing to do with it. it's easier to vaguely blame political parties without any proposed cause and effect than it is to look at actual policies.

been-there-done-that
As you said, it is a complex issue with many nuances. Both of the drivers for automation and all the free trade agreement were high labour costs. Add to that the high energy prices now being experienced and you can kiss the rest of your industry goodbye.

jessica murray
but, the labour costs were set to the cost of living, which were themselves a consequence of dependence on foreign oil.

i take a different view: i think that organized labour should have reacted to nafta by organizing strikes in mexico. our costs should not come down. their costs should come up.

but, then again, understand this: mexico has a state owned energy sector that keeps inflation down.

Andrew Niall Gordanier
I love how high and mighty you seem to feel even though you haven't made any credible argument yet. Should we bring science into this? Age actually does tell me one thing, you lack education in these matters.

jessica murray
i'm not going to cite my letters, but i'm old enough to have made my way through the higher education system, even if i'm not old enough to remember what happened in the early 1980s.

i'm actually providing the educated perspective, here.

the prime minister isn't old enough to remember the nep, either.

you'd have to be past or approaching retirement age.

Andrew Niall Gordanier
You have made a fundamental error in your assumption about the "carbon" industry. Correlation does not equal causation. You are willing to condemn millions of people based on a faulty premise. Educated perspective? It's all about context, which somehow you have removed yourself and easterners from.

jessica murray
i was making an ironic statement that you clearly didn't catch.

Andrew Niall Gordanier
Then you need to look up what irony means because you didn't use it appropriately.

jessica murray
again: i think it's clear you just didn't get the reference, based on your response of "freezing in the cold".

google the following term: "let the eastern bastards freeze in the dark."

Andrew Niall Gordanier
so this is about revenge is it? a case of schadenfreude me thinks. I'd like to know what degree you have. I'm thinking weaving or drawing. If you say political science then I'm going to be very disappointed.

jessica murray
my background is technical. this isn't relevant. and, i'll state for the third time now that it was merely an ironic turn of phrase meant to imply that the east has no reason to be concerned about the economic well being of westerners because the feeling would clearly not be mutual.

i don't remember the war of 1812 either. that doesn't mean i'm not informed on the topic.

--

Mad Robert
The oil industry emits probably less than a fraction of a percent of the entire Canadian carbon emissions. Carbon is good for us, but let's move beyond that, because oil is evil therefore we're all evil and must be punished.

The same percentage can be applied to the refugee crisis. But when a few hundred terrorists sneak in, it's not a bad thing, it just means that we're racists.

We've elected poorly, and we're starting to see the consequences.

jessica murray
it's actually about 25-30% of emissions. that would have taken about two minutes to google.