https://jasonparent.bandcamp.com/album/period-1
Saturday, February 20, 2016
it would be interesting to see what case law "judge" judy is citing, here. there's a concept in the common law system called due diligence. the legal system is based on stare decisis, not fundamentalist calvinism.
the reaction to this video is just another example of how remarkably ignorant americans are - and, in truth, have always been - about the historical basis of their legal systems. americans, by and large, legitimately want to live under sharia law.
how many times did trump declare bankruptcy, though, anyways?
===
kibblewibble1
This lesson will be lost on Bernie supporters. You make choices, YOU pay for them.
jessica
no, i think i get it. and, that means that when those kids grow up into criminals because they were forced to in order to survive, and they end up smashing up your car, then that's just you paying for your choice to withhold assistance.
Kban13
You can't reason with people like him. If he admits he is wrong, everything he has been brainwashed to believe falls apart. He doesn't believe facts, and keeps spouting the same lies he has been told by fox news. People like him are the reason the rest of the world laughs at America.
jessica
see, the thing is, though, that, on this particular issue, he actually doesn't have to abolish his worldview.
there are very strong arguments why conservatives, especially wealthy ones, should support social assistance. they don't have to stop being wealthy, or stop being conservatives, to come to a common end - even if they need a very different system of logic to get there.
what he's projecting ultimately doesn't benefit anybody. it just leads to a total systems collapse.
and, if you want to talk about a revival of new deal politics, what i'm saying is really fundamentally important.
Shqipëria Etnike
+kibblewibble1
You make choices loooooooooool
What choices do you have when you earn 3x less than you produce in the economy (results by a Harvard University recent study). A lower class American produces 18 dollars an hour and gets paid 7 dollars an hour. The other 11 dollars go to the top 1%. Now how many people are there who are working in America and who get paid less than 18 dollars an hour? Millions. For every 1 million workers the rich get 11 million wealth per hour, and that is a fact for over 50,000,000 american workers. Thats billions per day! Who made these choices? The lower class are no charity. Taking that 11 dollars an hour per person back from the top class is the way to go. Only someone brainwashed from those who take the 11 dollars will want them to keep taking the 11 dollars.
Trust me, the study is only for those who get paid below 18 dollars an hour (majority of Americans), now imagine doing a study for every worker of USA. The top 1% get fatter and fatter in money every second, and you defend them here even though you are the one whose money they are stealing. No comment.
kibblewibble1
+Shqipëria Etnike
In America you have many choices, and that's the point. Here, birth control is as cheap as it gets. Condoms are dirt cheap, the pill, Plan B, and on and on. Personal responsibility is about doing the right thing, and in this case, having more children, and then blaming the "1%" because you can't afford things is the antithesis of that. Ask yourself this question: if i worked hard to remove myself from poverty by doing the right thing, would i be ok with someone arbitrarily setting an amount of money they thought was going to "help" the poor, even if that meant 40% of every dollar I make? Your solution is to simply take money from those you deem rich enough to steal from, and give it freely to others, which ultimately helps no one. It impoverishes one group of people, and only teaches the other group that its ok if they do nothing for themselves, because they can just find someone else to take from. That only works for a little while. We were told by our president that "millionaires" were people who were making 250k a year, and above that was fair game.
I know that Europeans love their socialism, and middle class college kids here love to listen to intellectual professors go on and on about the evils of capitalism, but when push comes to shove, and there are no more rich people to take from, they go down a rung on the ladder. Eventually, if you managed to cling to what you have, they come for you. By then, its too late to say "b-but... I'm not the 1%!" When you look up and see nobody else to take from, these people you railed against the rich to help, will be clawing at your feet and calling for your blood, because you can afford a phone or computer to comment on youtube with, and they can't. If you've ever been dirt poor and climbed your way out, like I have, you learn to despise the theft and vilification, because you know you did the right thing and you're not a bad person. But according to the news, politicians, college kids, and those who didn't do the right thing, you are evil, not caring, and simply a means to an end... and it sucks to see fully capable people turn their noses up at jobs that are "beneath" them, then continue to call for my money. Socialism is evil. Its amoral and destructive. And its designed to keep everyone poor. It elevates NOBODY, and has been proven, time and time again, for the empty promises, stealing, food lines, abject poverty it causes to huge populations, to be a lie.
You're right though, you'll never convince me that stealing from the "rich" and giving to the poor is a good solution... ever.
kibblewibble1
+jessica
You're right... personal freedom and responsibility will ultimately lead to the system collapsing... just look at the havens of freedom that were the Soviet Union, Cuba, China, and all the 3rd world socialist societies theoughout the world! We regularly marvel at the beauties of Soviet progress, or all the inventions that come from Cuba, or all the good the Chinese government does in times of need!
I can't wait til I can schedule a vacation to the Soviet Union to see all the wonderful things there!
jessica
+kibblewibble1
ok. kban is right that there's not any use in bothering - but this response isn't reflective of a conservative. this response is reflective of an idiot.
just don't complain to me when your car gets smashed up by poor people - because that's payback for your refusal to share, and you'll have deserved it. no empathy. sorry.
Shqipëria Etnike
+kibblewibble1
Simply put, 1 year in University costs on average 50,000 dollars a year. You need to work enough to produce 150,000 dollars to be able to afford that 1 year at university with the current system, cause 2/3rd of your work will go to the top 1%. That's completely not fair. They are stealing your work by paying you way less than you deserve to be paid. How can you agree with that? Come on, you are producing 50 dollars, getting paid 17 (thats the national average). You are producing 18 dollars, getting paid 7 (thats the lower class). How is that fair? It's not about working and planning, it's about defending your money. Why let the top 1% steal it from you? I will never understand these things about America. Why don't you do it like Europe? Here in Europe you can't become a billionaire by cheating on your people, the only european billionaires have become so by cheating on the chinese in China, which again is not correct. Nobody deserves to earn billions. Every billionaire has become so by stealing what his workers have built Top 1% in USA steals 11 trillion dollars a year from you the people, how can you allow that to happen? Why do you support it? It's not right.
kibblewibble1
+jessica
Lol... well your response is absolutely reflective of a "useful idiot". That's what the old Soviet subversives called people like you, not me. I never would've used the word useful to describe you. And don't kid yourself. Once they're done destroying my stuff, assuming i don't shoot them first, they'll come for yours if you have anything left to take.
jessica
+Shqipëria Etnike
see, i agree that you don't get anywhere with conservatives by arguing for moral principles of equality. they have a different value system that's rooted in a calvinist concept of work. "right" and "wrong" have very different meanings to them. morals are relative, and you're just simply not operating with the same concepts of justice.
but, there was a time years ago when conservatives understood that the creation of an underclass necessarily puts their own safety in jeopardy. for a while, they tried the tactics of a police state, but that didn't work, so they moved to social welfare. it wasn't socialists that created the european welfare state, it was conservatives - bismarck & churchill. the point was to reduce dissent.
and, it worked.
the united states started peeling back social welfare in the 80s, and replaced it with things like the drug war and the crime bill. this resulted in the largest prison population in the world - a country with more prisoners per capita, in fact, than china or the soviet union. but, this is very expensive. and, it doesn't result in crime prevention.
again - i don't have a lot of patience. if you don't want to pay for this stuff, you can go ahead and deal with the consequence of high crime rates and high incarceration rates. in the end, it costs you far more to run the prisons than it would to send them to school. and, you get all kinds of unnecessary property damage out of it, while you're at it.
i'm safe and sound up here in canada. your choice - your consequences.
jessica
+kibblewibble1
a useful idiot was a foreign leftist that was tricked into working for the imperial ambitions of the soviets. it makes absolutely no sense, whatsoever, to use that kind of language, in context. i haven't stated my political affiliations, but i do not identify as a marxist and i'm well aware that i would have been purged by the soviets at the very start - if i wasn't killed fighting in the army that opposed them.
if we can take the context out of the realm of absurdity and back into the realm of reality, we can talk about smarter ways to manage a poor population that is only set to grow with rising automation and decreasing job opportunities. this is a problem that is only going to grow as time moves forwards, and that is going to require distributive approaches to neutralize - whether you like it or not.
or, like i say, you can continue on in the status quo - a system that facilitates pointless criminality, and sinks uncounted trillions into mass incarceration.
you get what you pay for, eh?
kibblewibble1
+Shqipëria Etnike
Like I said, companies do not exist to hand you money. They exist to make themselves money. The wages they pay you, aren't wages until they give it to you, in exchange for work. The amount that comes out to is balanced by how much money they can bring in with their services. This. Is. How. Its. Always. Worked. Of COURSE they are going to pay you like that! If they didn't, they wouldn't make money, go out of business, and you would have NO JOBS. Its up to you (again, personal responsibility) to decide whether your labor is worth what they are paying you. If you think the government will step in and magically force companies to pay you more based solely on "fairness", you can expect those companies to quickly shutter their doors, and leave. And the end result, again, would be NO JOBS. Saying that you could potentially make more money if only they would pay you more is so obvious and ridiculous, nobody ever takes the argument seriously. Them not paying you more isn't them stealing from you! What kind of argument is that? How do you even come to that conclusion?
And universities have artificially inflated tuitions, at least in America, due to subsidizing the loan process. Also, do not be surprised if you waste 4 years of college getting a degree in gender studies, or African dance, and can't get a job to pay back the bloated tuition.
kibblewibble1
+jessica
Oh... Canada... Lol now I see. Let's try a few real life examples here.
I have kids who beg me for cell phones. They want the good ones, and since I love them, I say ok. They get them and in a few weeks they have cracked screens. I replace them. A month later, they are cracked again! This time I make them pay to fix them out of their own pockets. You know how many cracked screens they have had since? My kids have actually done lemonade stands to make enough money for tablets! Do you know how many weekends they had to open up a lemonade stand to buy a $250 tablet?? Do you know that the experience was way more valuable than some piece of shit electronic device?
How 'bout another one? You have a family member who tragically becomes addicted to drugs. It was their choice to get addicted, but you want to help them, because its moral and right! After they destroy their lives, steal from you and others, countless arrests, and overdoses, you finally get them in rehab. They come out and maybe they're ok for a little while, and maybe they go right back onto the drugs. Either way, they end up going through the same thing, all over again. The lying, stealing, arrests, overdoses, the whole cycle, all over again. How many times do you go through that? Once? Twice? Every time until they finally OD and you realize you enabled them? Is it moral for you to do this? Everyone makes their own choices. Enable them, or set them free... but then again, you're Canadian... you just elected DUDEWEED. Enough said there...
jessica
+kibblewibble1
all profit is theft. if you were to abolish management (the middle man...), and have the workers run the companies themselves, you would eliminate that theft.
again: this is an argument that you should be able to present to conservatives and actually come out ahead on, as it reduces to eliminating waste. you just have to convince them that management is wasteful and that it's more efficient to get rid of it.
i don't see the relevance of anything you just typed.
but, i need to correct a misperception. i don't want to "help" addicts because it's "moral". i'm a moral nihilist. i don't believe in the existence of an objective morality. but, i'm a secular humanist, which means i think we can construct an artificial morality using logic and reason.
rather, i want to ensure that addicts do not pose a threat to others. i do not care if they use. i do not care if they overdose. i just don't want them smashing up anybody's car to get their fix.
and, empirical study has suggested that the best way to do this is to provide for injection sites.
kibblewibble1
+jessica
Lol objective nihilist that has no objective moral code telling me that it's not "right" that people make a profit? Are you taking acid, or are you just retarded? I'm sorry it's come to petty name calling, but people like you who want to push an arbitrary set of rules based on how they feel at the moment, are legitimately mentally deficient... did you not say that conservatives don't know right from wrong? You immediately follow that up with "durr, there is no right or wrong!"
How fucking absolutely retarded do you have to be to live in your world?
How retarded do you think others have to be to accept your world view?
jessica
+kibblewibble1
i'm not making a moral argument; you're the conservative here, you're supposed to be the one into moral arguments. i'm a liberal: i'm trying to convince you that your arguments are not in your own self-interest.
kibblewibble1
+jessica
How bout that? Finally a liberal admits that conservatives are the ones who base their beliefs on morality, rather than some amoral code skewed towards some vague, amorphous, empty set of judgment standards! Thanks, dudeweedlmao! You made my day!
jessica
+kibblewibble1
well, your concept of morality is vapid authoritarianism. yet, this is a centuries-old historical division - i'm merely stating dictionary definitions.
KTAnarchist1
+Shqipëria Etnike
"Simply put, 1 year in University costs on average 50,000 dollars a year.
You need to work enough to produce 150,000 dollars to be able to afford
that 1 year at university with the current system, cause 2/3rd of your
work will go to the top 1%. That's completely not fair."
Citation? No? I suppose that isn't necessary when making bullshit claims. I've gone 4 years at an AACSB accredited university for less than $5,000 per year.
Is it possible that there are universities that are as expensive as you claim? Sure. Is it foolish to attend them at those rates, when there are others with equal accreditation ratings that are far less expensive? Yes. It is.
But, by all means, keep complaining about how it's "rich people's fault" that people make bad decisions and support a university that is ripping them off.
And, for the record, that call for a citation extends to all of your figures. You produce $18 (or $50) per hour, yet only get paid $7 (or $18)? How is that, especially when the minimum wage has been over $7 per hour for years, and no employer could hold their employees if they ever figured out "the truth" as you claim it to be?
Look, I'm no millionaire, but I work my ass off for what I make, and bend over backwards for my customers (since they keep my doors open and my wife and kid fed), and I love my job, and don't spend all of my time bitching about my paycheck, even though I took a $4/hr. cut (not to mention other benefits from previous employment that I've left behind) to be where I am right now.
The owner of my company gets to pick his son up from school, or take his wife out to dinner, in a VERY nice Mercedes that I can't afford, and I don't think he's evil for it, because he built the company from the ground up. I wouldn't have had the opportunity to do what I do, with the people I work with, in the locations that we work, if it weren't for him.
The man hasn't stolen a damned thing from me, and has literally given me the clothes I wear to work, at the cost of them not being sold to paying customers.
If anything, I'm jealous that I don't have the means to start my own company, but I wouldn't take a cent from him, or anyone else, that I didn't earn or (intelligently) borrow, in order to do so.
You want to bitch because you think other people are taking your hard-earned money "unfairly," yet you would literally advocate for more of the same, albeit in reverse order, because it either fits your idea of "fairness" or because you think it's going to somehow make everybody equal?
I guess Europe still hasn't figured out irony or hypocrisy. Maybe we should give you guys another millennia to finally understand that there is more to a political/economic spectrum than "collectivist left" and "collectivist right". When you figure out how to put the customer first, and understand that no business keeps their doors open without incoming revenue, you'll have started to figure it out.
Yes, there is evil in the world. People are not inherently evil, even if they are billionaires. Evil is a choice, and its prevalence stems mostly from a lack of proper recognition and confrontation. Wanting to help people? Not evil. Wanting to do so by stealing from others, even with their knowledge and consent? Evil. Theft is not charity, my friend, even if it is theft from "people who can afford it". There are long-term consequences to such policies that will cause greater harm than you seem to understand. When the "evil billionaires" decide to do business elsewhere, all of the non-billionaires who work for them in your economy will find themselves seeking new employment. When entire economic sectors leave or become automated, many of those formerly employed individuals may be unable to find adequate employment. This only worsens the problem, in the long run.
Most people will give until it hurts, for the right cause (which is an individual concept). Beyond that point, they will stifle their own empathy, and walk away. If you think a billionaire, or even a millionaire, is any different, you're likely to find out the hard way that they will seek out greener pastures, and that they have the means to leave yours behind.
America has already learned this with our manufacturing sector, through bad trade deals and collectivist government fuckery.
Godspeed to your honorable endeavors, and have a nice day.
KTAnarchist1
+jessica
"we can talk about smarter ways to manage a poor population that is only
set to grow with rising automation and decreasing job opportunities.
this is a problem that is only going to grow as time moves forwards, and
that is going to require distributive approaches to neutralize -
whether you like it or not"
This is where we address the concept of an "information based economy". Surely you've heard of this.
It does not require "distributive approaches", only changes in educational conceptualization and application.
But if someone were to believe that the current educational system is the only possibly effective system, then it is understandable that they would not see this.
Why not teach children the things we spend 13 years teaching them (inadequately) in less than 13 years in a more effective manner? Certainly this is possible. Then, if we insist on maintaining this "you don't work until x age" concept, we focus on vocational training at that age, based upon IQ, aptitudes, and personal student preferences?
Granted, this is quite a shift, but it would prepare new high school graduates for their place in the economy and provide the whole economy the benefit of having ready candidates for a variety of areas, who understand that it is what they know, and whether it is valuable, marketable knowledge, that will determine their "fate" as a working person.
It wouldn't change much in the collegiate realm, and it might actually reduce the number of people who will attempt to attend a college or university despite being entirely unsuited to the effort.
Does it create a hierarchy of ability? No, it simply makes the best use of the hierarchy of ability that is inherent in humans.
Not every child is born an Olympic gold medal winner. Not every child is born a chess master. Not every child is born to be a television star. Those who are not will need a solid ground from which to build their future.
The "distributive approach" is as ineffective, in the long run, as it is immoral in the immediate now.
I will gladly cede that progress is necessary, but I will not agree that the current "progressive" movement is anything but a rehashing of the failed policies that are over a century old, and proven to fail in varying degrees, to the exact degree of implementation, every single time they have been implemented.
The "distributive approach" is not new, and is not worth repeating. Someone here claimed that "the socialists were not responsible for...", and that person is dead wrong. Government controlled employment is welfare, and the Third Reich (among others) excelled in that area, but I single out the Third Reich because you can't properly say "National-socialist German Workers' Party" without using the word "socialist".
The collectivist extreme is communism, and socialism is simply communism wearing soft gloves. The degree of collectivist application determines the padding, but at the end of the day, it's still collectivism.
I will never expect a collectivist to understand the true folly of their ways.
A single person can ask me to do something, and I can tell them, "No".
Ten people can tell me to do something, and I can tell them to get bent.
A hundred can order me to do something, threatening my very life, and I can choose to fight them.
A good collectivist will acquiesce to the first individual, for the "good of the collective"; if the first individual can present their argument in the properly persuasive fashion, no matter what the request might be. Groupthink is the greatest danger of collectivism, and it is evident that far too many people are under its influence.
jessica
+KTAnarchist1
the so-called "knowledge economy" has not developed in the vacuum of de-industrialization, and theories promoting it's inevitability should be thrown into the trash heap of history. it was a fantastical false projection that has been long since shown to be pure delusion. what we're seeing, instead, is mass unemployment, mass underemployment and mass incarceration. democrats need to drop their delusions on this point and get with the empirical data.
a better approach is to question the value of maintaining a private ownership in the means of production when that means of production is almost entirely automated. fordism worked as a compromise solution to the contradictions in capitalism for a very long time: you gave the workers enough money to buy the items being produced. it wasn't a utopia, but it was a pragmatic solution. yet, it relied on the existence of production and on paying out high enough wages. that whole system has collapsed, and nothing at all has moved in to replace it. a lot of bernie's support is actually coming from workers who want reindustrialization, and that's utter madness - it's flatly backwards.
frankly speaking, i don't want to live in a society where people are trained to maximize their value to a market. you're enslaving people to capital.
i want to live in a system where people have free access to resources and can apply them in a way that allows them to carry out intellectual and artistic pursuits.
i've been through this argument a million times. it's really not a left/right or socialist/capitalist argument. that only exists on the surface. it's really a question of whether you want to live in this austere, german society defined by these calvinist principles of work and reward, or whether you want to live in more of a liberal society defined by more relaxed attitudes towards labour and a greater focus on recreation.
but, you've taken the discussion dramatically off topic. my intention was simply to point out that it is not within the op's best interests to hoard resources.
and, fwiw, you have a lot of nerve calling yourself an anarchist. you're a slave to capital.
kibblewibble1
+jessica
Wew, lad... That's a real flowery way of saying "I don't wanna work, I just wanna bang on these drums all day!" I'd rather be a "slave to capital", ie; working hard to improve my station in life, than an actual slave for an authoritarian government that decides what's best for me, and reallocates the money earned from my work, to do-nothing, empty headed, rhetoric spewing, hive mind robots who think that everything is better when people have no free will. Corporations don't have the power to send people with guns to your house to take away your freedom when you choose not to do business with them. What part of this do you not understand? Do you even have a job? Do you even support yourself or are you eternally "in school" and living off of someone else?
jessica
+kibblewibble1
well, i don't want to work - and i do want to bang on the drums all day. that ought to be a human universal, but we're brainwashed from a very young age to accept these currency-based, coercive market relationships.
i mean, listen to yourself. you're hilarious.
you're a slave!
with a little help from technology, and a big change in attitude, we can build a better society that abolishes coercive labour. you're either on my side on this, and willing to help, or you're working for the banks - whether you realize it or not.
and, this guy calls himself an anarchist.
anachism, first and foremost, is about the abolition of wage slavery. this guy's just regurgitating all the banker propaganda about hard work and the "american dream".
(edit: actually, i apologize - i've confused these two posters. but, the point still stands.)
kibblewibble1
+jessica
Canada, folks... I'm hillarious because I want to work and have nice things, and not have to live off of others, but you're not deluded in thinking, like, really, actually thinking that without going out there and earning what you get, you deserve to be handed food, shelter, comfort, luxury, some sort of sun-drenched fantasy in which you get to play your pan flute, and frolic in a field of daisies & butterflies?? Your parents have failed you. Your school system has failed you. You do not know reality. You are to be pitied and used as a scornful example of what a wasted life truly is. I'm really dying to know how you support your lifestyle now... I know you don't have a job... its gotta be your parents. Are you even out of high school?
jessica
+kibblewibble1
see, this is what a slave sounds like. and it's this mindset that needs to abolished for us to emancipate ourselves from currency.
if anything, i hope i'm demonstrating my point that hoarding resources is not an act of self-interest.
i've managed to talk a psychiatrist into filling out disability forms. but, the truth is that i believe i'm entitled to a minimum income and that's just the shortest path to it.
kibblewibble1
+jessica
Wow... at least you're honest about being a fraud and a liar... I think you should've talked to that psychiatrist about a little more than defrauding your government. Why do you think you're entitled to anything? You obviously would be useless even in your own fantasy utopia, let alone in a productive society.
jessica
+kibblewibble1
yeah, you guys don't really believe in ideas like human rights. that's well understood to people outside your borders. kind of a shame, though.
i think i'm entitled to human rights because i'm a human and we've collectively decided that humans are entitled to rights. but, you're a slave. so, you can't understand that.
let me ask you this, though: what is it that you do, exactly, and how do you suppose that it is "productive"?
kibblewibble1
+jessica
I asked you first, but to answer your question anyway, I work in the petrochemical industry. I produce tangible goods that people use every day of their lives.
And you're so deluded, you actually think that people providing you with anything you want is a human fucking right? You're saying that where you live they're violating your human rights by making you lie in order syphon off of your government to survive? Lol... you're a really good troll... I can't believe I actually fell for this... Nobody is this sick, even in America...
jessica
+kibblewibble1
well, i didn't suppose that i'm entitled to a corvette and a mansion and a dog to follow me around that does backflips on command. i've stated that i believe that i'm entitled to a minimum income, and i'm not about to be browbeaten down by some petrochemical wage slave about it, either.
there was this document signed a little while back called the universal declaration of human rights. have you ever read it? i'd suggest you give it a read through.
for all your precious hard work, how much of that remains out of your grasp?
now, get back to work, you slave.
your concept of productive work is contentious at best. i'm an artist, and i'd argue that what i do is infinitely more valuable than the construction of plastic - which is incredibly environmentally destructive, and needs to be phased out as soon as possible.
regardless. can you explain to me - in concrete terms - why it is that what you do could not be done by a robot?
kibblewibble1
+jessica
Universal declaration of human rights? Who endorsed it? Who wrote it? Who does it entitle to take my labor and apply it to loser artists who produce NOTHING. A fucking artist... why is that not surprising? No wonder you choose to live your life at the mercy of government, who would just as soon flush you down the toilet the first chance they get. Choosing to work for a very good salary versus trying to convince some back alley quack that you need disability, while trying to sell a picture or two is slavery?
If you really want to convince people you are insane, do yourself a favor and print this whole back and forth out, then take it to a judge. They'll lock you up in a looney bin and throw away the key! Then you can draw happy little clouds, rainbows and unicorns til they purge you.
Sorry to disappoint, but, there are no robots capable of doing what I do. It takes human intelligence and innovation, you know (or most likely not), actual skill.
I honestly and sincerely hope you sell a painting for a ton of money. Stop trying to defraud the few people left in your country who want to work and pay taxes, and defraud some rich person crazier than you. Someone who wants to buy some degenerate sculpture, or a disgusting shit-picture or something. Meanwhile, the rest of us who actually produce for others will continue to build lives, raise children, and be happy.
jessica
+kibblewibble1
i don't really see anything worth responding to here - it's just an angry slave rant. although, you didn't actually answer my question.
i highly doubt that what you do is beyond the ability to automate. all you've really demonstrated is that you're working with an obsolete technology (oil) that should have been phased out quite some time ago. all i'm getting out of that is a net social negative.
the world would be better off if you were replaced by a computer, and you were given a set income that is able to meet your needs, instead.
i'm the future - i'm existing in a post-industrial social relationship, where i rely on technology for production and spend my time on intellectual pursuits (it's sound art, and you can find some of it by clicking on my name and following the bandcamp links). you're living in an industrial economy, and seem to be advocating a pre-industrial economic theory.
the first step for us to move forwards, socially, needs to be in people like yourself deromanticizing the concept of work. labour used to be a horrible necessity. today, it is being phased out.
but, you must come to this conclusion on your own. i cannot force it upon you.
but, i can suggest an excellent essay: the soul of man under socialism, by oscar wilde.
kibblewibble1
+jessica
Lol, ok... Let me know how all your needs are met when there are no more workers and we're all artists... or in your case, an autist.
This shit doesn't come from thin air... people actually have to work to do stuff. That includes building your robots who can do everything...
By the way, you do know they already have robots and computer programs that can paint, make sculptures and create music, right? Looks like you're already obsolete... people still need gasoline.
jessica
+kibblewibble1
i don't expect you to understand that robots cannot create art the same way that they can produce commodities.
it's not that technology can abolish all labour. it's that it can abolish all coerced labour, leaving what is left as entirely voluntary.
....meaning that if you want to work a job, that's great - in fact, it's encouraged. you just shouldn't expect to get paid for it. you should do it because you actually enjoy it.
ask yourself this question: if you weren't getting paid, would you do your job? if not, you should quit.
you certainly shouldn't be attempting to force your miserable mode of existence on to others. it's contemptible.
kibblewibble1
+jessica
Yup... you're retarded.
Just so happens, robots can do everything, but art, which you just so happen to do, and you're solution to metaphoric slavery, is... actual slavery. Y'know, cause the company I work for held a gun to my head and made me work there, and its not right for me to get paid.
Ok. You are an idiot. Good trolling. You made me respond way more than I should. I guess I just like arguing... or beating my head against a wall.
Good luck committing fraud, and i hope you and your wonder-bots have a happy future!
jessica
+kibblewibble1
see, it's amazing how these things reinforce themselves. this person has demonstrated:
(1) a clear tendency towards political conservatism.
(2) a total lack of understanding of what art is.
(3) a total lack of understanding of slavery (or, as i've suggested, total slave brainwashing)
(4) a complete lack of intelligence.
they then attack what is clearly superior intellect with base insults.
can you even spell philosophy?
i have advanced stem degrees. but, i took the time to stop and think and read some thinking by some thinkers. and, i came to a set of conclusions that not some but most intelligent people come to, in regards to the value of labour in an industrial society.
the wilde essay is very important. it's the reason they went after him.
kibblewibble1
+jessica
K... keep me posted
KTAnarchist1
+jessica
"anachism, first and foremost, is about the abolition of wage slavery."
You might want to look up the definition of "anarchist".
Anarchism, first and foremost, is about self-governance. Might that include an abolition of wage-slavery? Sure. But where you and I seem to differ is in the area of whether currency-based trade is better than barter and conquest, and whether wage-slavery is an inevitable result of an economy that utilizes currency-based trade. Second, if you'd bothered to ask instead of being a snot, I'd have been happy to explain the idea of my position as an anarcho-realist, which accounts for lazy shits like you, who guarantee that an actual anarchistic society would be a far cry from any form of Utopia.
I don't know what you do for a living, though I am now aware that you don't want to have to earn a living.
If the terms "experience" and "education" have played any part in your social or economic standing, then your arguments against the economy being information or knowledge-based fall flat. But, of course you haven't bothered to think that through.
The truth is that you're just an ignorant, lazy shit who doesn't want to do anything that might be considered "work", and you think that your very survival (let alone any semblance of luxury or comfortable existence) should simply be handed to you because you're alive and breathing.
That, alone, is enough for me to place no value in anything else that you've proposed, especially when you're proposing that everyone should live at the charity of those, like yourself, who do not want to do anything but bang on their drum all day.
I'd like to know where your "free resources" are going to come from, if everybody gets to live your Utopian dream. Or maybe some people get to work for your leisure? Is that not at least somewhat hypocritical?
jessica
+kibblewibble1
if you'd read the rest of the thread, you'd know that you're merely repeating the argument.
but, i'm not interested in this debate. i entered this discussion to point out that it's in the op's self-interest to support wealth redistribution.
and, you're not an anarchist. you're a fascist.
kibblewibble1
+KTAnarchist1
Meh... don't bother... he's a child who thinks stuff materializes out of thin air, and that everyone should take advantage of people who do things for themselves, by having the government rob them blind.
He's useless.
jessica
+kibblewibble1
the reality is that i'm entirely aware that what i want is infeasible, but i'm not the counter-example. you're the counter-example. the fact that you exist means that i can't get what i want. and, i can see that - most anarchists can see that.
but, it doesn't follow that i'm going to all of a sudden change how i think about things and go be a slave with a shit-eating grin. it does follow that you need to make a choice about how you want to deal with people like me, who are never going to do anything except disrupt your market economies. if not out of logic, than even out of spite.
that is inevitable, from your perspective. i exist. i reject your system. i'll physically fight you over it, if it comes down to it. what do you do about it?
you can throw us in jail if you want. but it's expensive, isn't it? you could try executing us in the public square, and i don't doubt that plenty of you would be just fine with that, but you're going to run into public opposition on that. i hope. my tactic relies on this assumption.
the reality is that it costs a lot less for you to just write me a monthly check. this is the unavoidable conclusion of true rational self-interest. and, i'm not shedding any tears for the slaves that won't fight back - you're right: that's their choice.
if i have a choice between being a slave and enslaving others, of course i will choose to enslave others.
that's not hypocrisy. i'm not rejecting slavery out of some kind of lofty moral principles. it's self-interest.
the reaction to this video is just another example of how remarkably ignorant americans are - and, in truth, have always been - about the historical basis of their legal systems. americans, by and large, legitimately want to live under sharia law.
how many times did trump declare bankruptcy, though, anyways?
===
kibblewibble1
This lesson will be lost on Bernie supporters. You make choices, YOU pay for them.
jessica
no, i think i get it. and, that means that when those kids grow up into criminals because they were forced to in order to survive, and they end up smashing up your car, then that's just you paying for your choice to withhold assistance.
Kban13
You can't reason with people like him. If he admits he is wrong, everything he has been brainwashed to believe falls apart. He doesn't believe facts, and keeps spouting the same lies he has been told by fox news. People like him are the reason the rest of the world laughs at America.
jessica
see, the thing is, though, that, on this particular issue, he actually doesn't have to abolish his worldview.
there are very strong arguments why conservatives, especially wealthy ones, should support social assistance. they don't have to stop being wealthy, or stop being conservatives, to come to a common end - even if they need a very different system of logic to get there.
what he's projecting ultimately doesn't benefit anybody. it just leads to a total systems collapse.
and, if you want to talk about a revival of new deal politics, what i'm saying is really fundamentally important.
Shqipëria Etnike
+kibblewibble1
You make choices loooooooooool
What choices do you have when you earn 3x less than you produce in the economy (results by a Harvard University recent study). A lower class American produces 18 dollars an hour and gets paid 7 dollars an hour. The other 11 dollars go to the top 1%. Now how many people are there who are working in America and who get paid less than 18 dollars an hour? Millions. For every 1 million workers the rich get 11 million wealth per hour, and that is a fact for over 50,000,000 american workers. Thats billions per day! Who made these choices? The lower class are no charity. Taking that 11 dollars an hour per person back from the top class is the way to go. Only someone brainwashed from those who take the 11 dollars will want them to keep taking the 11 dollars.
Trust me, the study is only for those who get paid below 18 dollars an hour (majority of Americans), now imagine doing a study for every worker of USA. The top 1% get fatter and fatter in money every second, and you defend them here even though you are the one whose money they are stealing. No comment.
kibblewibble1
+Shqipëria Etnike
In America you have many choices, and that's the point. Here, birth control is as cheap as it gets. Condoms are dirt cheap, the pill, Plan B, and on and on. Personal responsibility is about doing the right thing, and in this case, having more children, and then blaming the "1%" because you can't afford things is the antithesis of that. Ask yourself this question: if i worked hard to remove myself from poverty by doing the right thing, would i be ok with someone arbitrarily setting an amount of money they thought was going to "help" the poor, even if that meant 40% of every dollar I make? Your solution is to simply take money from those you deem rich enough to steal from, and give it freely to others, which ultimately helps no one. It impoverishes one group of people, and only teaches the other group that its ok if they do nothing for themselves, because they can just find someone else to take from. That only works for a little while. We were told by our president that "millionaires" were people who were making 250k a year, and above that was fair game.
I know that Europeans love their socialism, and middle class college kids here love to listen to intellectual professors go on and on about the evils of capitalism, but when push comes to shove, and there are no more rich people to take from, they go down a rung on the ladder. Eventually, if you managed to cling to what you have, they come for you. By then, its too late to say "b-but... I'm not the 1%!" When you look up and see nobody else to take from, these people you railed against the rich to help, will be clawing at your feet and calling for your blood, because you can afford a phone or computer to comment on youtube with, and they can't. If you've ever been dirt poor and climbed your way out, like I have, you learn to despise the theft and vilification, because you know you did the right thing and you're not a bad person. But according to the news, politicians, college kids, and those who didn't do the right thing, you are evil, not caring, and simply a means to an end... and it sucks to see fully capable people turn their noses up at jobs that are "beneath" them, then continue to call for my money. Socialism is evil. Its amoral and destructive. And its designed to keep everyone poor. It elevates NOBODY, and has been proven, time and time again, for the empty promises, stealing, food lines, abject poverty it causes to huge populations, to be a lie.
You're right though, you'll never convince me that stealing from the "rich" and giving to the poor is a good solution... ever.
kibblewibble1
+jessica
You're right... personal freedom and responsibility will ultimately lead to the system collapsing... just look at the havens of freedom that were the Soviet Union, Cuba, China, and all the 3rd world socialist societies theoughout the world! We regularly marvel at the beauties of Soviet progress, or all the inventions that come from Cuba, or all the good the Chinese government does in times of need!
I can't wait til I can schedule a vacation to the Soviet Union to see all the wonderful things there!
jessica
+kibblewibble1
ok. kban is right that there's not any use in bothering - but this response isn't reflective of a conservative. this response is reflective of an idiot.
just don't complain to me when your car gets smashed up by poor people - because that's payback for your refusal to share, and you'll have deserved it. no empathy. sorry.
Shqipëria Etnike
+kibblewibble1
Simply put, 1 year in University costs on average 50,000 dollars a year. You need to work enough to produce 150,000 dollars to be able to afford that 1 year at university with the current system, cause 2/3rd of your work will go to the top 1%. That's completely not fair. They are stealing your work by paying you way less than you deserve to be paid. How can you agree with that? Come on, you are producing 50 dollars, getting paid 17 (thats the national average). You are producing 18 dollars, getting paid 7 (thats the lower class). How is that fair? It's not about working and planning, it's about defending your money. Why let the top 1% steal it from you? I will never understand these things about America. Why don't you do it like Europe? Here in Europe you can't become a billionaire by cheating on your people, the only european billionaires have become so by cheating on the chinese in China, which again is not correct. Nobody deserves to earn billions. Every billionaire has become so by stealing what his workers have built Top 1% in USA steals 11 trillion dollars a year from you the people, how can you allow that to happen? Why do you support it? It's not right.
kibblewibble1
+jessica
Lol... well your response is absolutely reflective of a "useful idiot". That's what the old Soviet subversives called people like you, not me. I never would've used the word useful to describe you. And don't kid yourself. Once they're done destroying my stuff, assuming i don't shoot them first, they'll come for yours if you have anything left to take.
jessica
+Shqipëria Etnike
see, i agree that you don't get anywhere with conservatives by arguing for moral principles of equality. they have a different value system that's rooted in a calvinist concept of work. "right" and "wrong" have very different meanings to them. morals are relative, and you're just simply not operating with the same concepts of justice.
but, there was a time years ago when conservatives understood that the creation of an underclass necessarily puts their own safety in jeopardy. for a while, they tried the tactics of a police state, but that didn't work, so they moved to social welfare. it wasn't socialists that created the european welfare state, it was conservatives - bismarck & churchill. the point was to reduce dissent.
and, it worked.
the united states started peeling back social welfare in the 80s, and replaced it with things like the drug war and the crime bill. this resulted in the largest prison population in the world - a country with more prisoners per capita, in fact, than china or the soviet union. but, this is very expensive. and, it doesn't result in crime prevention.
again - i don't have a lot of patience. if you don't want to pay for this stuff, you can go ahead and deal with the consequence of high crime rates and high incarceration rates. in the end, it costs you far more to run the prisons than it would to send them to school. and, you get all kinds of unnecessary property damage out of it, while you're at it.
i'm safe and sound up here in canada. your choice - your consequences.
jessica
+kibblewibble1
a useful idiot was a foreign leftist that was tricked into working for the imperial ambitions of the soviets. it makes absolutely no sense, whatsoever, to use that kind of language, in context. i haven't stated my political affiliations, but i do not identify as a marxist and i'm well aware that i would have been purged by the soviets at the very start - if i wasn't killed fighting in the army that opposed them.
if we can take the context out of the realm of absurdity and back into the realm of reality, we can talk about smarter ways to manage a poor population that is only set to grow with rising automation and decreasing job opportunities. this is a problem that is only going to grow as time moves forwards, and that is going to require distributive approaches to neutralize - whether you like it or not.
or, like i say, you can continue on in the status quo - a system that facilitates pointless criminality, and sinks uncounted trillions into mass incarceration.
you get what you pay for, eh?
kibblewibble1
+Shqipëria Etnike
Like I said, companies do not exist to hand you money. They exist to make themselves money. The wages they pay you, aren't wages until they give it to you, in exchange for work. The amount that comes out to is balanced by how much money they can bring in with their services. This. Is. How. Its. Always. Worked. Of COURSE they are going to pay you like that! If they didn't, they wouldn't make money, go out of business, and you would have NO JOBS. Its up to you (again, personal responsibility) to decide whether your labor is worth what they are paying you. If you think the government will step in and magically force companies to pay you more based solely on "fairness", you can expect those companies to quickly shutter their doors, and leave. And the end result, again, would be NO JOBS. Saying that you could potentially make more money if only they would pay you more is so obvious and ridiculous, nobody ever takes the argument seriously. Them not paying you more isn't them stealing from you! What kind of argument is that? How do you even come to that conclusion?
And universities have artificially inflated tuitions, at least in America, due to subsidizing the loan process. Also, do not be surprised if you waste 4 years of college getting a degree in gender studies, or African dance, and can't get a job to pay back the bloated tuition.
kibblewibble1
+jessica
Oh... Canada... Lol now I see. Let's try a few real life examples here.
I have kids who beg me for cell phones. They want the good ones, and since I love them, I say ok. They get them and in a few weeks they have cracked screens. I replace them. A month later, they are cracked again! This time I make them pay to fix them out of their own pockets. You know how many cracked screens they have had since? My kids have actually done lemonade stands to make enough money for tablets! Do you know how many weekends they had to open up a lemonade stand to buy a $250 tablet?? Do you know that the experience was way more valuable than some piece of shit electronic device?
How 'bout another one? You have a family member who tragically becomes addicted to drugs. It was their choice to get addicted, but you want to help them, because its moral and right! After they destroy their lives, steal from you and others, countless arrests, and overdoses, you finally get them in rehab. They come out and maybe they're ok for a little while, and maybe they go right back onto the drugs. Either way, they end up going through the same thing, all over again. The lying, stealing, arrests, overdoses, the whole cycle, all over again. How many times do you go through that? Once? Twice? Every time until they finally OD and you realize you enabled them? Is it moral for you to do this? Everyone makes their own choices. Enable them, or set them free... but then again, you're Canadian... you just elected DUDEWEED. Enough said there...
jessica
+kibblewibble1
all profit is theft. if you were to abolish management (the middle man...), and have the workers run the companies themselves, you would eliminate that theft.
again: this is an argument that you should be able to present to conservatives and actually come out ahead on, as it reduces to eliminating waste. you just have to convince them that management is wasteful and that it's more efficient to get rid of it.
i don't see the relevance of anything you just typed.
but, i need to correct a misperception. i don't want to "help" addicts because it's "moral". i'm a moral nihilist. i don't believe in the existence of an objective morality. but, i'm a secular humanist, which means i think we can construct an artificial morality using logic and reason.
rather, i want to ensure that addicts do not pose a threat to others. i do not care if they use. i do not care if they overdose. i just don't want them smashing up anybody's car to get their fix.
and, empirical study has suggested that the best way to do this is to provide for injection sites.
kibblewibble1
+jessica
Lol objective nihilist that has no objective moral code telling me that it's not "right" that people make a profit? Are you taking acid, or are you just retarded? I'm sorry it's come to petty name calling, but people like you who want to push an arbitrary set of rules based on how they feel at the moment, are legitimately mentally deficient... did you not say that conservatives don't know right from wrong? You immediately follow that up with "durr, there is no right or wrong!"
How fucking absolutely retarded do you have to be to live in your world?
How retarded do you think others have to be to accept your world view?
jessica
+kibblewibble1
i'm not making a moral argument; you're the conservative here, you're supposed to be the one into moral arguments. i'm a liberal: i'm trying to convince you that your arguments are not in your own self-interest.
kibblewibble1
+jessica
How bout that? Finally a liberal admits that conservatives are the ones who base their beliefs on morality, rather than some amoral code skewed towards some vague, amorphous, empty set of judgment standards! Thanks, dudeweedlmao! You made my day!
jessica
+kibblewibble1
well, your concept of morality is vapid authoritarianism. yet, this is a centuries-old historical division - i'm merely stating dictionary definitions.
KTAnarchist1
+Shqipëria Etnike
"Simply put, 1 year in University costs on average 50,000 dollars a year.
You need to work enough to produce 150,000 dollars to be able to afford
that 1 year at university with the current system, cause 2/3rd of your
work will go to the top 1%. That's completely not fair."
Citation? No? I suppose that isn't necessary when making bullshit claims. I've gone 4 years at an AACSB accredited university for less than $5,000 per year.
Is it possible that there are universities that are as expensive as you claim? Sure. Is it foolish to attend them at those rates, when there are others with equal accreditation ratings that are far less expensive? Yes. It is.
But, by all means, keep complaining about how it's "rich people's fault" that people make bad decisions and support a university that is ripping them off.
And, for the record, that call for a citation extends to all of your figures. You produce $18 (or $50) per hour, yet only get paid $7 (or $18)? How is that, especially when the minimum wage has been over $7 per hour for years, and no employer could hold their employees if they ever figured out "the truth" as you claim it to be?
Look, I'm no millionaire, but I work my ass off for what I make, and bend over backwards for my customers (since they keep my doors open and my wife and kid fed), and I love my job, and don't spend all of my time bitching about my paycheck, even though I took a $4/hr. cut (not to mention other benefits from previous employment that I've left behind) to be where I am right now.
The owner of my company gets to pick his son up from school, or take his wife out to dinner, in a VERY nice Mercedes that I can't afford, and I don't think he's evil for it, because he built the company from the ground up. I wouldn't have had the opportunity to do what I do, with the people I work with, in the locations that we work, if it weren't for him.
The man hasn't stolen a damned thing from me, and has literally given me the clothes I wear to work, at the cost of them not being sold to paying customers.
If anything, I'm jealous that I don't have the means to start my own company, but I wouldn't take a cent from him, or anyone else, that I didn't earn or (intelligently) borrow, in order to do so.
You want to bitch because you think other people are taking your hard-earned money "unfairly," yet you would literally advocate for more of the same, albeit in reverse order, because it either fits your idea of "fairness" or because you think it's going to somehow make everybody equal?
I guess Europe still hasn't figured out irony or hypocrisy. Maybe we should give you guys another millennia to finally understand that there is more to a political/economic spectrum than "collectivist left" and "collectivist right". When you figure out how to put the customer first, and understand that no business keeps their doors open without incoming revenue, you'll have started to figure it out.
Yes, there is evil in the world. People are not inherently evil, even if they are billionaires. Evil is a choice, and its prevalence stems mostly from a lack of proper recognition and confrontation. Wanting to help people? Not evil. Wanting to do so by stealing from others, even with their knowledge and consent? Evil. Theft is not charity, my friend, even if it is theft from "people who can afford it". There are long-term consequences to such policies that will cause greater harm than you seem to understand. When the "evil billionaires" decide to do business elsewhere, all of the non-billionaires who work for them in your economy will find themselves seeking new employment. When entire economic sectors leave or become automated, many of those formerly employed individuals may be unable to find adequate employment. This only worsens the problem, in the long run.
Most people will give until it hurts, for the right cause (which is an individual concept). Beyond that point, they will stifle their own empathy, and walk away. If you think a billionaire, or even a millionaire, is any different, you're likely to find out the hard way that they will seek out greener pastures, and that they have the means to leave yours behind.
America has already learned this with our manufacturing sector, through bad trade deals and collectivist government fuckery.
Godspeed to your honorable endeavors, and have a nice day.
KTAnarchist1
+jessica
"we can talk about smarter ways to manage a poor population that is only
set to grow with rising automation and decreasing job opportunities.
this is a problem that is only going to grow as time moves forwards, and
that is going to require distributive approaches to neutralize -
whether you like it or not"
This is where we address the concept of an "information based economy". Surely you've heard of this.
It does not require "distributive approaches", only changes in educational conceptualization and application.
But if someone were to believe that the current educational system is the only possibly effective system, then it is understandable that they would not see this.
Why not teach children the things we spend 13 years teaching them (inadequately) in less than 13 years in a more effective manner? Certainly this is possible. Then, if we insist on maintaining this "you don't work until x age" concept, we focus on vocational training at that age, based upon IQ, aptitudes, and personal student preferences?
Granted, this is quite a shift, but it would prepare new high school graduates for their place in the economy and provide the whole economy the benefit of having ready candidates for a variety of areas, who understand that it is what they know, and whether it is valuable, marketable knowledge, that will determine their "fate" as a working person.
It wouldn't change much in the collegiate realm, and it might actually reduce the number of people who will attempt to attend a college or university despite being entirely unsuited to the effort.
Does it create a hierarchy of ability? No, it simply makes the best use of the hierarchy of ability that is inherent in humans.
Not every child is born an Olympic gold medal winner. Not every child is born a chess master. Not every child is born to be a television star. Those who are not will need a solid ground from which to build their future.
The "distributive approach" is as ineffective, in the long run, as it is immoral in the immediate now.
I will gladly cede that progress is necessary, but I will not agree that the current "progressive" movement is anything but a rehashing of the failed policies that are over a century old, and proven to fail in varying degrees, to the exact degree of implementation, every single time they have been implemented.
The "distributive approach" is not new, and is not worth repeating. Someone here claimed that "the socialists were not responsible for...", and that person is dead wrong. Government controlled employment is welfare, and the Third Reich (among others) excelled in that area, but I single out the Third Reich because you can't properly say "National-socialist German Workers' Party" without using the word "socialist".
The collectivist extreme is communism, and socialism is simply communism wearing soft gloves. The degree of collectivist application determines the padding, but at the end of the day, it's still collectivism.
I will never expect a collectivist to understand the true folly of their ways.
A single person can ask me to do something, and I can tell them, "No".
Ten people can tell me to do something, and I can tell them to get bent.
A hundred can order me to do something, threatening my very life, and I can choose to fight them.
A good collectivist will acquiesce to the first individual, for the "good of the collective"; if the first individual can present their argument in the properly persuasive fashion, no matter what the request might be. Groupthink is the greatest danger of collectivism, and it is evident that far too many people are under its influence.
jessica
+KTAnarchist1
the so-called "knowledge economy" has not developed in the vacuum of de-industrialization, and theories promoting it's inevitability should be thrown into the trash heap of history. it was a fantastical false projection that has been long since shown to be pure delusion. what we're seeing, instead, is mass unemployment, mass underemployment and mass incarceration. democrats need to drop their delusions on this point and get with the empirical data.
a better approach is to question the value of maintaining a private ownership in the means of production when that means of production is almost entirely automated. fordism worked as a compromise solution to the contradictions in capitalism for a very long time: you gave the workers enough money to buy the items being produced. it wasn't a utopia, but it was a pragmatic solution. yet, it relied on the existence of production and on paying out high enough wages. that whole system has collapsed, and nothing at all has moved in to replace it. a lot of bernie's support is actually coming from workers who want reindustrialization, and that's utter madness - it's flatly backwards.
frankly speaking, i don't want to live in a society where people are trained to maximize their value to a market. you're enslaving people to capital.
i want to live in a system where people have free access to resources and can apply them in a way that allows them to carry out intellectual and artistic pursuits.
i've been through this argument a million times. it's really not a left/right or socialist/capitalist argument. that only exists on the surface. it's really a question of whether you want to live in this austere, german society defined by these calvinist principles of work and reward, or whether you want to live in more of a liberal society defined by more relaxed attitudes towards labour and a greater focus on recreation.
but, you've taken the discussion dramatically off topic. my intention was simply to point out that it is not within the op's best interests to hoard resources.
and, fwiw, you have a lot of nerve calling yourself an anarchist. you're a slave to capital.
kibblewibble1
+jessica
Wew, lad... That's a real flowery way of saying "I don't wanna work, I just wanna bang on these drums all day!" I'd rather be a "slave to capital", ie; working hard to improve my station in life, than an actual slave for an authoritarian government that decides what's best for me, and reallocates the money earned from my work, to do-nothing, empty headed, rhetoric spewing, hive mind robots who think that everything is better when people have no free will. Corporations don't have the power to send people with guns to your house to take away your freedom when you choose not to do business with them. What part of this do you not understand? Do you even have a job? Do you even support yourself or are you eternally "in school" and living off of someone else?
jessica
+kibblewibble1
well, i don't want to work - and i do want to bang on the drums all day. that ought to be a human universal, but we're brainwashed from a very young age to accept these currency-based, coercive market relationships.
i mean, listen to yourself. you're hilarious.
you're a slave!
with a little help from technology, and a big change in attitude, we can build a better society that abolishes coercive labour. you're either on my side on this, and willing to help, or you're working for the banks - whether you realize it or not.
and, this guy calls himself an anarchist.
anachism, first and foremost, is about the abolition of wage slavery. this guy's just regurgitating all the banker propaganda about hard work and the "american dream".
(edit: actually, i apologize - i've confused these two posters. but, the point still stands.)
kibblewibble1
+jessica
Canada, folks... I'm hillarious because I want to work and have nice things, and not have to live off of others, but you're not deluded in thinking, like, really, actually thinking that without going out there and earning what you get, you deserve to be handed food, shelter, comfort, luxury, some sort of sun-drenched fantasy in which you get to play your pan flute, and frolic in a field of daisies & butterflies?? Your parents have failed you. Your school system has failed you. You do not know reality. You are to be pitied and used as a scornful example of what a wasted life truly is. I'm really dying to know how you support your lifestyle now... I know you don't have a job... its gotta be your parents. Are you even out of high school?
jessica
+kibblewibble1
see, this is what a slave sounds like. and it's this mindset that needs to abolished for us to emancipate ourselves from currency.
if anything, i hope i'm demonstrating my point that hoarding resources is not an act of self-interest.
i've managed to talk a psychiatrist into filling out disability forms. but, the truth is that i believe i'm entitled to a minimum income and that's just the shortest path to it.
kibblewibble1
+jessica
Wow... at least you're honest about being a fraud and a liar... I think you should've talked to that psychiatrist about a little more than defrauding your government. Why do you think you're entitled to anything? You obviously would be useless even in your own fantasy utopia, let alone in a productive society.
jessica
+kibblewibble1
yeah, you guys don't really believe in ideas like human rights. that's well understood to people outside your borders. kind of a shame, though.
i think i'm entitled to human rights because i'm a human and we've collectively decided that humans are entitled to rights. but, you're a slave. so, you can't understand that.
let me ask you this, though: what is it that you do, exactly, and how do you suppose that it is "productive"?
kibblewibble1
+jessica
I asked you first, but to answer your question anyway, I work in the petrochemical industry. I produce tangible goods that people use every day of their lives.
And you're so deluded, you actually think that people providing you with anything you want is a human fucking right? You're saying that where you live they're violating your human rights by making you lie in order syphon off of your government to survive? Lol... you're a really good troll... I can't believe I actually fell for this... Nobody is this sick, even in America...
jessica
+kibblewibble1
well, i didn't suppose that i'm entitled to a corvette and a mansion and a dog to follow me around that does backflips on command. i've stated that i believe that i'm entitled to a minimum income, and i'm not about to be browbeaten down by some petrochemical wage slave about it, either.
there was this document signed a little while back called the universal declaration of human rights. have you ever read it? i'd suggest you give it a read through.
for all your precious hard work, how much of that remains out of your grasp?
now, get back to work, you slave.
your concept of productive work is contentious at best. i'm an artist, and i'd argue that what i do is infinitely more valuable than the construction of plastic - which is incredibly environmentally destructive, and needs to be phased out as soon as possible.
regardless. can you explain to me - in concrete terms - why it is that what you do could not be done by a robot?
kibblewibble1
+jessica
Universal declaration of human rights? Who endorsed it? Who wrote it? Who does it entitle to take my labor and apply it to loser artists who produce NOTHING. A fucking artist... why is that not surprising? No wonder you choose to live your life at the mercy of government, who would just as soon flush you down the toilet the first chance they get. Choosing to work for a very good salary versus trying to convince some back alley quack that you need disability, while trying to sell a picture or two is slavery?
If you really want to convince people you are insane, do yourself a favor and print this whole back and forth out, then take it to a judge. They'll lock you up in a looney bin and throw away the key! Then you can draw happy little clouds, rainbows and unicorns til they purge you.
Sorry to disappoint, but, there are no robots capable of doing what I do. It takes human intelligence and innovation, you know (or most likely not), actual skill.
I honestly and sincerely hope you sell a painting for a ton of money. Stop trying to defraud the few people left in your country who want to work and pay taxes, and defraud some rich person crazier than you. Someone who wants to buy some degenerate sculpture, or a disgusting shit-picture or something. Meanwhile, the rest of us who actually produce for others will continue to build lives, raise children, and be happy.
jessica
+kibblewibble1
i don't really see anything worth responding to here - it's just an angry slave rant. although, you didn't actually answer my question.
i highly doubt that what you do is beyond the ability to automate. all you've really demonstrated is that you're working with an obsolete technology (oil) that should have been phased out quite some time ago. all i'm getting out of that is a net social negative.
the world would be better off if you were replaced by a computer, and you were given a set income that is able to meet your needs, instead.
i'm the future - i'm existing in a post-industrial social relationship, where i rely on technology for production and spend my time on intellectual pursuits (it's sound art, and you can find some of it by clicking on my name and following the bandcamp links). you're living in an industrial economy, and seem to be advocating a pre-industrial economic theory.
the first step for us to move forwards, socially, needs to be in people like yourself deromanticizing the concept of work. labour used to be a horrible necessity. today, it is being phased out.
but, you must come to this conclusion on your own. i cannot force it upon you.
but, i can suggest an excellent essay: the soul of man under socialism, by oscar wilde.
kibblewibble1
+jessica
Lol, ok... Let me know how all your needs are met when there are no more workers and we're all artists... or in your case, an autist.
This shit doesn't come from thin air... people actually have to work to do stuff. That includes building your robots who can do everything...
By the way, you do know they already have robots and computer programs that can paint, make sculptures and create music, right? Looks like you're already obsolete... people still need gasoline.
jessica
+kibblewibble1
i don't expect you to understand that robots cannot create art the same way that they can produce commodities.
it's not that technology can abolish all labour. it's that it can abolish all coerced labour, leaving what is left as entirely voluntary.
....meaning that if you want to work a job, that's great - in fact, it's encouraged. you just shouldn't expect to get paid for it. you should do it because you actually enjoy it.
ask yourself this question: if you weren't getting paid, would you do your job? if not, you should quit.
you certainly shouldn't be attempting to force your miserable mode of existence on to others. it's contemptible.
kibblewibble1
+jessica
Yup... you're retarded.
Just so happens, robots can do everything, but art, which you just so happen to do, and you're solution to metaphoric slavery, is... actual slavery. Y'know, cause the company I work for held a gun to my head and made me work there, and its not right for me to get paid.
Ok. You are an idiot. Good trolling. You made me respond way more than I should. I guess I just like arguing... or beating my head against a wall.
Good luck committing fraud, and i hope you and your wonder-bots have a happy future!
jessica
+kibblewibble1
see, it's amazing how these things reinforce themselves. this person has demonstrated:
(1) a clear tendency towards political conservatism.
(2) a total lack of understanding of what art is.
(3) a total lack of understanding of slavery (or, as i've suggested, total slave brainwashing)
(4) a complete lack of intelligence.
they then attack what is clearly superior intellect with base insults.
can you even spell philosophy?
i have advanced stem degrees. but, i took the time to stop and think and read some thinking by some thinkers. and, i came to a set of conclusions that not some but most intelligent people come to, in regards to the value of labour in an industrial society.
the wilde essay is very important. it's the reason they went after him.
kibblewibble1
+jessica
K... keep me posted
KTAnarchist1
+jessica
"anachism, first and foremost, is about the abolition of wage slavery."
You might want to look up the definition of "anarchist".
Anarchism, first and foremost, is about self-governance. Might that include an abolition of wage-slavery? Sure. But where you and I seem to differ is in the area of whether currency-based trade is better than barter and conquest, and whether wage-slavery is an inevitable result of an economy that utilizes currency-based trade. Second, if you'd bothered to ask instead of being a snot, I'd have been happy to explain the idea of my position as an anarcho-realist, which accounts for lazy shits like you, who guarantee that an actual anarchistic society would be a far cry from any form of Utopia.
I don't know what you do for a living, though I am now aware that you don't want to have to earn a living.
If the terms "experience" and "education" have played any part in your social or economic standing, then your arguments against the economy being information or knowledge-based fall flat. But, of course you haven't bothered to think that through.
The truth is that you're just an ignorant, lazy shit who doesn't want to do anything that might be considered "work", and you think that your very survival (let alone any semblance of luxury or comfortable existence) should simply be handed to you because you're alive and breathing.
That, alone, is enough for me to place no value in anything else that you've proposed, especially when you're proposing that everyone should live at the charity of those, like yourself, who do not want to do anything but bang on their drum all day.
I'd like to know where your "free resources" are going to come from, if everybody gets to live your Utopian dream. Or maybe some people get to work for your leisure? Is that not at least somewhat hypocritical?
jessica
+kibblewibble1
if you'd read the rest of the thread, you'd know that you're merely repeating the argument.
but, i'm not interested in this debate. i entered this discussion to point out that it's in the op's self-interest to support wealth redistribution.
and, you're not an anarchist. you're a fascist.
kibblewibble1
+KTAnarchist1
Meh... don't bother... he's a child who thinks stuff materializes out of thin air, and that everyone should take advantage of people who do things for themselves, by having the government rob them blind.
He's useless.
jessica
+kibblewibble1
the reality is that i'm entirely aware that what i want is infeasible, but i'm not the counter-example. you're the counter-example. the fact that you exist means that i can't get what i want. and, i can see that - most anarchists can see that.
but, it doesn't follow that i'm going to all of a sudden change how i think about things and go be a slave with a shit-eating grin. it does follow that you need to make a choice about how you want to deal with people like me, who are never going to do anything except disrupt your market economies. if not out of logic, than even out of spite.
that is inevitable, from your perspective. i exist. i reject your system. i'll physically fight you over it, if it comes down to it. what do you do about it?
you can throw us in jail if you want. but it's expensive, isn't it? you could try executing us in the public square, and i don't doubt that plenty of you would be just fine with that, but you're going to run into public opposition on that. i hope. my tactic relies on this assumption.
the reality is that it costs a lot less for you to just write me a monthly check. this is the unavoidable conclusion of true rational self-interest. and, i'm not shedding any tears for the slaves that won't fight back - you're right: that's their choice.
if i have a choice between being a slave and enslaving others, of course i will choose to enslave others.
that's not hypocrisy. i'm not rejecting slavery out of some kind of lofty moral principles. it's self-interest.
at
10:03
Location:
Windsor, ON, Canada
it's now been six weeks without smoking, btw. and i'm feeling like i'm over it.
at
07:03
Location:
Windsor, ON, Canada
youtube just pushed down a character limit.
i think it's as clear as day that they are shutting down comments - for political reasons. they want this shut down before the election cycle heats up.
as time consuming as this has been, i actually waited too long to do it and have lost much more than i wanted. the last few days of vlogs have dealt with this topic. i've got over a thousand pages off, and have quite a bit more to go, but i've also lost a lot of really interesting conversations.
with the character limit? it's over. it's useless. i'm moving to my own space - there's no other solution.
it's going to be a while before i get back to work, unfortunately. but if i had doubts about the worth of this, the character limit has reinforced the need for me to be doing this asap.
youtube, as we know it, is on the verge of collapse. it's been too successful in spreading ideas. and, it's getting shut down.
bernie sanders may very well win the election. that is a failure of the propaganda system.
i think it's as clear as day that they are shutting down comments - for political reasons. they want this shut down before the election cycle heats up.
as time consuming as this has been, i actually waited too long to do it and have lost much more than i wanted. the last few days of vlogs have dealt with this topic. i've got over a thousand pages off, and have quite a bit more to go, but i've also lost a lot of really interesting conversations.
with the character limit? it's over. it's useless. i'm moving to my own space - there's no other solution.
it's going to be a while before i get back to work, unfortunately. but if i had doubts about the worth of this, the character limit has reinforced the need for me to be doing this asap.
youtube, as we know it, is on the verge of collapse. it's been too successful in spreading ideas. and, it's getting shut down.
bernie sanders may very well win the election. that is a failure of the propaganda system.
at
04:15
Location:
Windsor, ON, Canada
the result is just pointless clutter. and, i'm not going to pull back from it out of aesthetic - i'm going to push it hard, to demonstrate how bad it looks and why you should change it.
at
04:07
Location:
Windsor, ON, Canada
so, i will need to post five separate posts - part 1, part 2, etc.
at
04:06
Location:
Windsor, ON, Canada
i am trying to post a comment on my own page, and it will not allow me to paste the entire thing in.
at
04:04
Location:
Windsor, ON, Canada
character limits?
wow.
getting worse and worse by the day, youtube.
do you know what character limits accomplish? they force users to copy and paste a long reply into multiple shorter replies.
it's an incredibly pointless, utter dick move.
here's a tip: if my post is too long, don't read it. zero fucks given. and, if i post too many long posts, and you don't want to read them? maybe you should unsubscribe from my feed.
i can't even believe, really, that this is seriously a thing. it's so horrifically backwards and so remarkably stupid...
wow.
getting worse and worse by the day, youtube.
do you know what character limits accomplish? they force users to copy and paste a long reply into multiple shorter replies.
it's an incredibly pointless, utter dick move.
here's a tip: if my post is too long, don't read it. zero fucks given. and, if i post too many long posts, and you don't want to read them? maybe you should unsubscribe from my feed.
i can't even believe, really, that this is seriously a thing. it's so horrifically backwards and so remarkably stupid...
at
04:03
Location:
Windsor, ON, Canada
this is very disappointing.
it's rather apparent that the wynne-led government does not have the same commitment to environmental issues as the mcguinty government - that she is rather more concerned about issues of fiscal management. and, that's got my vote wandering elsewhere. i hope that the ndp can present themselves as an electable force some time soon.
this policy is going to lead to a reduction of recycling services - and the message the government is sending is that it doesn't care if it does. it would have been better to raise corporate taxes, to cover the costs.
if unilever won't pay for it, what happens to the plastic? it will end up in the landfill. and, the government is no doubt fully expecting this.
www.theweathernetwork.com/news/articles/ontario-wants-to-make-manufacturers-pay-for-recyclables/63927/
it's rather apparent that the wynne-led government does not have the same commitment to environmental issues as the mcguinty government - that she is rather more concerned about issues of fiscal management. and, that's got my vote wandering elsewhere. i hope that the ndp can present themselves as an electable force some time soon.
this policy is going to lead to a reduction of recycling services - and the message the government is sending is that it doesn't care if it does. it would have been better to raise corporate taxes, to cover the costs.
if unilever won't pay for it, what happens to the plastic? it will end up in the landfill. and, the government is no doubt fully expecting this.
www.theweathernetwork.com/news/articles/ontario-wants-to-make-manufacturers-pay-for-recyclables/63927/
at
01:15
Location:
Windsor, ON, Canada
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